Hello everyone.

I am a long time TF2 player, and have been frequenting on HH since early 2009. Thx for the awesome servers and the unique atmosphere. I write this post to argue that spawncamping in TF2 stock maps should not result in any administrative action. I do not wish to annoy anyone, on the contrary I wish any counterarguments you might have be posted.

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Last week I was playing cp_badlands on one of the HH TF2 servers with about 20 or more players (if I remember correctly, it was a week ago). Our team was losing and defending the last point in a big, bloody mess. I tried several approaches to cap the next point and failed. Then I switched to demoman, evaded the enemy team and went to camp their spawn near the central control point, thinking it was the best chance our team had at getting the next control point.

I killed the enemies with stickies as they walked out of the spawn door, perhaps with 6-7 detonations. I distinctly remember thinking how unusually long I survived, as the stickies tend run out fast and scouts run back to distract or kill me. I remember doing this once or twice, until one of the |H|H| players implied I would be temporarily banned if I didn't stop right away. I apologized and changed my strategy. Please copy-paste the chat log if you can find it.

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Just a moment ago I talked with Extra_Cold about this. Some things are unclear, as I believe spawn camping is an effective strategy and should in no case result to banning, or even kicking. Please remember that I have been a leader in a TF2 community for several months in the past, and have experience from both sides of the decision making process. My arguments:

1) "The possible actions [of the spawncamped] are too restricted, its not fun/fair." -- TF2 is not CSS, and the players can spawn and move freely until they walk out of the spawn door, meaning that they do not die immediately after spawning. Hence their actions are not entirely restricted. Furthermore, how is the restriction any different than, say, cornering the enemy in a room, a corner, a tunnel? The enemy cannot, without an uber or a distraction, get through a sticky trap without dying in either case.
2) "But its the spawnroom. If you corner the enemy on the battlefield, he will spawn somewhere else and continue fighting. That is fair." -- Yes, until he is cornered again. Why would the time in between make any difference, I ask.
3) To #2 some might say, "... but its not the time, its the restricted actions." How is this different to a wrangled sentry wall protected by AB pyros? Only thing to do there without an uber is to teleport or walk up to the sentry wall and die. These examples, in my opinion, show that spawncamping is no different than a solid defensive line.

A few more arguments:
4) Managing to get in a spawncamp position takes skill. Any kills that result from there are therefore due to skill. From that point of view, how is spawncamp any different from dueling a superior or better positioned enemy in any other part of the map? In my opinion it is the same.
5) "Spawncamp should not be abused." -- I ask, how could it be abused? Even if an entire team camps the spawn door, its in my opinion exactly the same as the team holding any other choke point. A kill is a kill. A block is a block. The spawncampers are completing their objective.
6) "Spawncamping is griefing." -- Why? Are dominations or unbroken defenses also griefing? (ofc if the spawncampers do not complete their objective, then imo its griefing and a waste of time, see #5)
7) "It cannot be countered. / Its too hard to counter." -- It can be countered. Build an uber, or run over the stickies one player at a time and focus on the camper when the stickies run out. To the "too hard to counter", it should make no difference whatsoever. I have understood that on HH servers skillfully dominating players are not kicked. Teamscramble on the other hand is another matter.

In my case (1 demoman, 1 spawndoor) someone said that its not fair if there is only one exit. In my opinion this makes no difference whatsoever. See #1 and #7.

I politely request that on these grounds spawncamping should be considered an acceptable strategy. Please present your arguments and decisions. Ty.

What you are doing is against our server rules. Why should we change something that has been a policy for years on our successful TF2 servers.

As a player I would feel embarassed doing what you did. To disrupt the enemy you should take out any Tele entrances, do an attack run at the back of the enemy and that is your mission.

If there was a decent player on, you wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds doing what you did. However this isn't always the case and lack of coordination can result in a demo keeping most of a team locked in spawn with no other spawn to jump to.

Thanks for the effort put in to write the post, Th

I remember there being some discussion on this a long while ago, and by the end of it I came to the opinion that spawn camping should not be allowed, but I can't really remember why so for now I'll hesitantly agree with you and wait and see what everyone else says. The feeling has always tended to be a strong dislike of spawn camping, which I think is a good enough reason to ban it even though to me it doesn't logically make sense.



Once he'd learned of the rule he apologized and stopped doing it. We could answer any suggestion anyone puts forward with 'why should we do anything when we've run servers for years', yet we have a suggestion box plugin on the servers and our maps and configs change all the time. His post was very polite and I don't think we should dismiss it out of hand.

Thank you for your reply K3D. I reviewed the server rules, and yes it does indeed say that...


Now I have to admit that I should have known this before trying to camp the badlands spawn last week. I will check the rules again before I play the next time, and avoid this mistake of mine. My apologies again. To your post:

1) You would feel embarrassed, you say. Why?
2) Doing the run at the back at the enemy is my mission? I disagree, I think assisting my team to complete the objective (in this case 5cp map) is my mission. If killing the enemies at a spawn choke point is the best way to assist my team, then it is my mission.
3) "If there was a decent player on, you wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds doing what you did." Are you saying that I should be banned because I was possibly the best player on the server at the time?

To the server policy I say that players do indeed wind up about many things. Why, then, have you singled out spawncamping? Please remember that I am not here annoy or disrespect anyone, but to understand the policy. -- And to this I reply that if I were a community leader, I might say that on average the atmosphere on the servers is better with this policy, and if the atmosphere were my primary objective, then yes this policy would be fine. Do you agree?

Hmm. Anything else? What do you think?

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Oh and thank you for your input as well Sam.

Is the spawn camping rule displayed on the server?



The argument would be that killing someone who walks through an opaque door doesn't show skill, it's just chance that you could get there, and that this instance of bad luck for the dead players part is especially irritating as they spawned after a 20 second wait mere seconds ago. This tends to apply to Gravelpit more than other maps as attackers can get to their spawn fairly easily and it's often quite quiet around there. (Just remembered why I disagreed with spawn camping)



In fact killing someone at spawn is less effective than killing them after they've left. Think about it:

- Player spawns after 20 second respawn timer
- Player is killed almost straight away.
- Spawncamper is killed, because he got so close to the enemy spawn.
- They respawn again after 20 seconds and are ready to help their team

45 seconds in total till they're back on the battlefield. Now if you kill them later on:

- Player spawns after 20 secs
- Walks along for 20 seconds
- Is killed by Th
- Respawns after another 20 seconds

That's 60 seconds in total they've wasted without doing anything. In the mean time, you've been out and about defending a cap there, taking a sentry down here.

I'll have a shot in replying to each argument .

1) The camped players are too restricted. The only thing they can do is die to the camper, or sit in spawn being useless. Just because they dont die immediately from the camper doesn't mean that it has the same effect that it would getting killed immediately after spawning, like in CSS you mentioned.

2) Getting cornered in the battlefield is due being bad, or coming up against a better opponent. When being spawn camped, it doesnt matter how good you are, you can't change the outcome solo.

3) Like 2, a good defense needs skill and discipline, and needs to teamwork to break down. Besides, I don't think having your defensive lines at the enemy spawn is the main objective, you should be going for the cap. And in A/D games, a little bit of etiquette is needed to allow everyone to have fun, this is a game, on a pub server afterall.

4) You deem waiting and right-clicking as skill? I disagree in getting to spawn camping position as skillful, it takes more luck than anything. I think a better showing of skill would be to organise you team into an effective push for the cap.

5) Spawn camping is not the objective of TF2.

6) Again, dominations and strong defenses require skill and teamwork. Camping, imo, does not.

7) I think I have to give you that one, it can be countered with some comms, or a few brave souls to go through before I go out to get all the glory.

A final point, you have to remember that this is a very popular public server that gets lots of new players especially since its gone F2P. I don't think that the first experience of any player new to TF2 should be to get spawn camped, it ruins what we try to make of a welcoming environment on our servers.

1) Cheap kills, I'd rather face someone in a fair fight than maim some unexpected person who has just spawned and has done nothing wrong than open up a spawn door.

Please also bear in mind that the spawn door you are on about has no locker, and you can be damaged from detonated stickies within that room.

2) You could have taken out any back snipers at choke then possibly had a medic pick just off spire

3) No, I am saying that the enemy team was lacking coordination. A good player would notice / respond to a call that their team-mates are being locked in at spawn and go back and free up the spawn.

And that is the crux of the situation. Although our servers apparantly have a high skill level for a pub, they are still only a public server. A place where people come to kick back and have fun. Gameplay like you suggest does not go hand in hand with fun.

I agree with K3D even if I've done my fair share of legging it for the spawn during a def battle in badlands

But I'm only there for the teles and once I've set a couple of people on fire I tend to leg it, usually because the 2 people on fire want to kill me... and then they get 3 of their friends to help stamp out the pesky cockroach... which is fine by me as I've got 5 players out of the game looking for revenge.

But I've always viewed stickying the spawn doors as a bit lame as it does'nt give the spawnies time to respond.... bang you're dead... wheres the fun in that? especially on a pubbie server.

Oh and if you want to prove your skills at evading and causing mayhem, go pyro and kill the snipers who always lurk at the back guarding the spire
Much screams and laughs had by all

Boris

I'd also like to add that there is no real banning policy for this. At worst it would be a kick for offending after a few warnings then at most a very short ban (30 mins to 1hr at most).

I don't think anyone has been banned for this behaviour in the past.

This one really seems down to the choice of spawn that was camped. It was the worst style of spawn to break a public game, as K3D just mentioned.

If this was say Dustbowl or Goldrush etc it wouldn't be a problem because you couldn't lock the offensive team into a single doored spawn like that.

What we care about here the most is giving someone a fair chance/go at a pub with a pretty good skill level....

....this swings both ways....

If you aren't sure what is legitimate spawn camping by our rules. Just follow the number of doors advice. Forward spawn and only 1 door, plus no cabinet is a definite major no-no.

Three doors on the spawn and no-one will even bat an eyelid from the |H|H|.