Thank you for the input everyone. I enjoyed reading your post Kifter, let me reply to you

Let me just say at this point that if the atmosphere is gravely affected by the policy, and the atmosphere is the objective of the community leaders, then that policy is fine.

-- How is it any different than a sentry wall that is impossible without an uber? See #3: I disagree, it is not any different. They don't have to be useless. They can build ubers in spawn.

I agree with the latter sentence. It is still no different than my example at #3 in the original post. Getting out of a spawn requires an uber, but its the same as in any other choke point.

The objective in push maps is to prevent BLU from capping. If spawncamping is the best way to achieve that (In Dustbowl lvl 2 imo it is, btw) then in my opinion it is preferred.

Smart, eh Yes, it is skill like wasd + crouch + m1 is a skill. See this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTZ1rmgbW9U. I disagree, in crowded maps it takes skill to reach the spawn door.

I agree, but it makes no difference here. See my reply to you above.

Spawncamping successfully requires teamwork and skill. Take Dustbowl lvl2 for example. Therefore I disagree with you.

Cheers!

Hmm. I kinda agree with this. I do however have a problem with any policy that doesn't follow logic. If you're a new player, then, theoretically, anything that you do will get you killed. Why is spawncamping any different then?

To the thought that you cannot forsee the stickies behind a spawn door, I say that you can still be prepared. You can't forsee a spy that literally arrives from nowhere, but you can be prepared. New players should be taught constant vigilance if they wish to excel in TF2. They should not be pissed because of spawncamping for the same reason they should not be pissed about the sniper who saw them first or the spy they did not anticipate.


To K3D:
I prefer to complete the objective. See #2 at my first reply to you:

True, its a bit different.

They can't fight as well if I spawncamp and kill 5 of their teammates at a time. You are suggesting an ineffective strategy.

In that case in my opinion you argument is off the point. I killed them because I was better, and it has nothing to do with the policy on spawncamping.

Yes, to have fun, I agree. However, see my reply to Kifter above, the last 2 paragraphs.

--

Ty for your input as well NTrailZ

1) If it's just one Demo camping, you can easily deal with him. With any class. Open the door for just a fraction. When stickies detonate, attack. In addition to that, there is bonk, dead ringer and telling your dead teammates, that they are about to spawn into a stickytrap.

2) It also doesn't matter how good you are, when the rest of your team sucks. When there is demo at your spawn, and noboy on your team has even said anythign, your team has just failed.

3) The demo keeps the reinforcements in check, so that the rest of the team can push the cart or cap the point.

4) Waiting and right-clicking at choke points is one of the demos specialities. He can do this everywhere and surprise you.

5) see 3)

6) see 4) Also, building a level 3 sentry can get easy kills for you, without any skill involved.


The only valid arguments I've heard against "spawncamping" are that it's against the rules and that it is annoying. But so is John Spartan. And Spies. They don't get banned.
I think the problem is that players expect the spawn door to be clean. Then woops, it's not. Most of the time all you need is paying attention. Sometimes you can see the demo flying towards your spawn. Or you can hear the stickies. Or some teammate tells you in teamchat that there is a demo at your spawn. And if you really couldn't know that he was there and you died: TELL YOUR TEAM! And the demo won't last long.

Also, this usually happens on payload and not on cp maps. Like at the start of badwater, a blu demo can jump over everything and run to red's spawn. If this happens and nobody stops him or says it in teamchat/voice, this is inexcusable, because the jump is so obvious and can be seen by everybody. The other map I can think of is Goldrush, especially stage 1. If blu is steamrolling, red can expect to be spawncamped. But that is just steamrolling. I mean, what else should blu do in that situation? Calmly wait around the corner to give blu a chance to win?

If you can pull this on a map like badlands, that's not so easy.

I certainly don't want to ruin the fun. But I don't understand the problem. Run into a stickytrap at the spawndoor or around the next corner: What's the difference? Both can be unexpected. And what about that Scout who is waiting behind our forward spawn, to pick me off? Cheap kill or lazy team?

I agree entirely with lolschi. Excellent post.

Such old territory to cover once again... sigh...

We aren't anti-spawn camping, lets get that straight before we go any further. It's a small part of the game and we all accept that.

What is in question here are the few spawns that allow 1 demo-man to lock a group of people out of the game. Just doing this once on some maps, like badlands. Can turn a close good game into a one sided stomp from there on out.

Then making spawn camping a much larger part of the game. Which not many members are in favour of.

Yes it can be balanced even then in some situations, but its capacity for spoiling games on certain maps. And the need to have a general rule that works for most situations. Is why we are at the place we are today.

Well my 2 cents is that camping the spawn camping is not very sporting at all, instant unexpected death on the spawn door is not a good experience and there is no lesson to be learned, in the next 20 seconds more of my team mates have handed themselves over to someones k/d trying to break the lockin and as a result we've probably lost the round, the fun games are the ones that a fought for tooth and nail, not the ones where the enemies are like fish in a barrel.

If im not having fun, i don't stick around, but im more forgiving considering it's our servers so i'll carry on playing / will return , some new potential regular is not going to share the same mentality as me and will just leave if they are not having fun.

I'll be absolutly frank here, i myself hate spawn camping of any kind in any game and i'll never be won over, and i'm fairly certain that the vast majority of players don't like being on the receiving end of it either, unless of course you like to subject others to it, however when all is said and done, it does happen and i let it slide for the most part because it is rare, but i would not want to be playing on a server where this was the norm.

Spawn rooms cannot be compared to choke points. A choke point exists because of the coming together of 2 teams at a tight spot. Choke points allow for spam to come from both sides, at a spawn room it is all one way. You cannot expect players to build an uber everytime they want to exit their spawn. Also, choke points are not usually the only way through, like in a spawn room.

I say, apart from said payload maps, this will only occur if one team is steamrolling. And then, spawncamping is just a symptome. The other team has already lost.

As an admin my most effective strategy would be to enable god mode on myself and start sm_admin slaying the enemy team on respawn. That is some effective strategy, but you know what.. I would look a prize idiot doing it.

Your strategy would be unfair, as you have admin powers unlike other players.

So far every single argument against spawn camping has been countered, save the community aspect from NTrailZ. Let me say I agree fully with it. From the community's point of view this policy, apparently, is beneficial.

I have to say at this point, that I am no longer directly against the policy. There is however a very important note in NTrailZ's post:
It will only spoil games if the majority of TF2 players are uneducated. The arguments in this topic in my opinion make it clear. Think about it, as this is one of the reasons why societies do not work efficiently. Especially you younger gamers here. Have you ever seen a lawmaker say something you disagree with? It might well be a case like this, where logic dictates otherwise but the people don't like it or don't know enough to undersand it. That is why some laws are shortcuts so they can be applied in many cases.

I think we have finished this discussion. Thank you, everyone, for participating. Any further thoughts to flex our minds with? Good night.

You miss the irony in my post.

Just because I have options available to me, does not mean that I have to make use of them.

If I want to play comp and play an efficient strategy I will play comp. These are public servers and I choose a playstyle that respects all skill levels.