-Big Daddy, Charizard, Triceraptor, Space Marine are really deadly at close range (nearly one shot, one kill), even more with their abilities... it's a compensation that they can be stuck!
They all have the same dmg, 195, there's no difference with most of the other hales. Triceraptor also has this extremely long range.
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-> Actually, it's really more difficult than before to stuck them, you really need 2 ubbered ones , one on the front, one on the back to stuck them... It has maybe not be completly fixed, but it's way more playable now!
This isn't always necessary, if you are a heavy and you jump into hale while ubered, chances are high someone from your team will also get inside the hale making the hale unable to do anything for 12 seconds long. Really fair to lose 12k health while you just sit there, waiting for it to be over. Idc if it's a weakness, no hale should be able to lose 1/3th of his total health on a full server that fast. (except for telefrag, but those are harder to pull off)
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->Big Daddy is the most difficult one (you nearly need 3 persons to stuck it), and he's really fast after losing health making that nearly impossible to stuck him if he fight smartly (he has also heavy Knock-back resistance, making things really easy)!
Big Daddy is by far the most easiest one to get stuck in. Even with the heavy knockback, he still gets huge amounts of crit knockback from hitscan weapons due his large hitbox.
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->Charizard can nearly always avoid to be stucked, his knock-back is also huge, and he has airblast with his first rage... it's maybe a difficult one to master, but a well player with air-blast can make clean repulse rocket shot that is nearly impossible to dodge or see it coming! I respect the ones mastering it... cause i do not!
I can agree that Charizard is harder to trap, but that isn't an excuse on not removing it. His rage is broken anyways, you can't even see what amount of ammo you get. I'd suggest on using the latest version of special_noanims since it fixed the problem. One thing that should be noted is that even despite the -99% afterburn dmg penalty, you can still get 24 dmg per second from the afterburn if you get stunned while being on fire.
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->Triceratops and Spacemarine are really OP, if you use wisely your charge... and it's really one hit, one kill (except heavies or buff demo/soldiers), you just need to avoid ubber and target medics... Sentries are not even a threat for these ones!
Space Marine is again one of the easier targets of hitscan classes and getting him stuck. The problem with Triceraptor is his range, health, charging when trying to jump and his slow movement speed in general, especially when a HHH is lurking around.
Quote:
>>>> For these bosses, the problem is much more the Unbalances Maps, that nearly mean your death just because of it... I think of Gridwalls or Nova Prospect... Jumping style (or need it to be well played) bosses can't do a shit here! For these bosses, if the sky is open, there is always a way!
>>>> Also, there is a problem about their height... they can't pass some door or stuff... sometime there is exploits with that!
If they have these problems and you agree that those are stupid, why are you defending them to not getting changed? Because it's their weakness? Change Big Daddy and he becomes Saxton Hale, still a balanced hale. Change Charizard, he becomes Nyan Cat, a somewhat balanced hale. Change Space Marine, he becomes Demopan besides the trade spam, also a balanced hale. Change Triceraptor... I dunno.
Quote:
The Slow motion bosses... After, Slow-mo Bosses can easily choose their targets, if they got stuck by ubber, that's their mistake doing it! After, being stuck in walls happen, but that's nearly the same for ubber, that's a mistake that could have been avoid!
The difference between getting stuck inside an uber and the environment is: "Hey there, you just wasted your entire hale round by clicking that one person who knows how to abuse the hale's rage, congratulations, you're a failure." What's the fun of that?
Quote:
The Hitbox... I think the hit box are just weakness or strenght of Bosses! I actually see that as good points... cause of Diversity and Balance!
Great, let's give Soldier, Demo, Pyro, Spy and Engineer an advantage over Heavy, Scout and Sniper. Same goes for the Pyro hales, they just put Pyro at a disadvantage.
Quote:
Grey Alien: It has its weaknesses, the fact he can't super jump, he's not extremely fast and his rage is not autokill or stun (if you're smart, lucky and reactive enough, it's always avoidable) and he's inoperative for a few seconds after TP... make him not so OP in fact... you just need to adapt!
Receives almost no knockback, putting Heavies at a disadvantage. Can kill every class besides a fully overhealed Heavy in 1 freaking hit. And his rage is extremely broken, Friagram (creator of the rage) said the people touching the beams should always getting lifted up by it, it happens barely. As I've said, too many beams in a too large radius, reduce its dmg and the rage and I'll be fine with it.
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The mummy... I actually agree with that... But i don't see anyting to do with it except removing an actual orginal boss that change of other bosses gameplay... that will be a huge loss!
Leaving a hale that allows exploiting? Remove the shrinking and it'll be fixed. Gaining acces to places where you can only get while being mini isn't the only problem with this hale. If you're getting smaller and smaller, you'll receive much more self knockback. A Boston Basher Scout can jump out of the Crevice with just hurting him, heck even Heavy can fly with the GRU while being super small.
Quote:
HHH... I can only agree with all your facts! But i can add that sometime, they kill you through walls or roof...
Thank you for agreeing on that.
Quote:
[b]On my side, i want to add that: It's nearly impossible sometime for Daleck Caan to win, just because he can't actually kill sentries (unless 20 hits)... If the sentry block the view and the way to the engi, there is no way to deal with it! Here, that's a real unbalanced stuff (i had suffered it yesterday)!
He also has huge trouble with HHH due his slow speed.
Quote:
That's maybe just another point of view... Cause, if you want to balance everything... You nearly make standardisation for every bosses, what's the pleasure and utility of having different ones?
Am I asking for standardisation? No, I'm asking to make hales more enjoyable to play with and against them, I don't see what's the problem with that.
Quote:
In fact, i don't see the serv that unpleasant!
If I found the server that unpleasant, I wouldn't be playing on it for more than 2 years.
_________________ I'm just assuming things most of the time...
Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:00 pm
Llamara
HH Donor
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:42 pm Posts: 379 Location: France
Re: Server's problems
Maybe... maybe i want to defend even a bit glitch (even nerfed) bosses, cause they make the challenge!
For each bosses that can be stuck, there is (nearly) a boss that look like the same and can't be stuck! If you don't like being stuck, just don't choose these bosses (there is so much choices)! Also we nearly can consider that being stuck (with ubber) is just a huge Weakness... and these bosses are just bigger challenge to win with!
I know it's a bit frustrating to have a boss like that and can't win with it... But, can be excepted when you chose random, you accept his weaknesses... Cause you could have chosen another boss without these weaknesses, it's your fault (even more when you didn't choose), wasted queue point too! I see the stuff coming "When a new player come on the serv... that he didn't know"... It the same as for other bosses... they don't know how to jump, and often get owned cause they don't know how it work (that's not "Holy shit, a pony!" for AppleJack that will help to understand the jumps)! Newbies are just easy preys, and don't last long, even with OP bosses, and that works for everything!
I see people that use to play a lot on the serv, know to adapt each boss, make strategies, exploit the weakness... I think that's better to have differences, even if it look like sometime as a bug... The purpose is to enjoy the game... if you don't, just kill yourselves (In game only ^^), if that's a boss you didn't choose, do it next time (that's your fault not doing it, or you knew the risks as random, cause some maps nearly mean death to some boss or unskilled players)!
I know there is people that love challenges, even i, sometime take Triceratops, knowing that i could be stuck by ubber, but i still want to deal/evade with that... and i think it more rewarding to play like that!
If a boss has no way to win, that doesn't apply... But i think, bosses that are really hard to handle, that are far from auto-win, are still good for the game... And it should have been more hardcore gameplay bosses to enjoy with, cause we already have a lot easy to handle ones...
As example: -Bug's Bunny VS Pink Panther -> 8 Sec jump Cooldown / 4 Sec jump Cooldown -> Slow Loading Jump / Fast Loading Jump -> Difficult to see / Pink -> 5K damage for rage (2.5 damage for other bosses) -> Backstabs
People nearly always complain that Bug's Bunny is too OP... But that just because the Backstab just OS and they nearly never see it coming! BB need to be played deceitful, if he failed his jump, he need to wait 8 second to jump again (without the loading, that can take 0.5 to 2 seconds more)... At the moment, he's only less visible than PP, but PP has way more shift possibilities and nearly 3 time faster to jump! In game, with BB, i had really hard time, hide and seeking, waiting for my cooldown... luring people... But with PP, i was spotted easily, but i manage to goomba half of the team, with easy jump tricks... it was way faster to win!
These bosses are actually nerfed (5K for rage, not sure PP), but one is really hardcore, the other one just playtime (i think that PP is way more OP)!
So you can choose as the same for Big Daddy VS Saxton Hale, just one is more hardcore cause it could be stuck!
Quote:
If they have these problems and you agree that those are stupid, why are you defending them to not getting changed? Because it's their weakness? Change Big Daddy and he becomes Saxton Hale, still a balanced hale. Change Charizard, he becomes Nyan Cat, a somewhat balanced hale. Change Space Marine, he becomes Demopan besides the trade spam, also a balanced hale. Change Triceraptor... I dunno.
So, yeah, i'm defending these silly points, cause, what is the point to have clones of other bosses if the only stuff that change is more or less the skin! At least the is more different gameplay and challenge with these! Chaos can be a good thing, and if you want to balance everything, the game will be just uniform and boring! It changes gameplay for bosses and mercenaries... even glitchy stuff has attractive points!
Edit:
Quote:
Great, let's give Soldier, Demo, Pyro, Spy and Engineer an advantage over Heavy, Scout and Sniper. Same goes for the Pyro hales, they just put Pyro at a disadvantage.
What are you talking about? They are already there... The efficiency of classes, are coming from theses differencies, and also maps! I'm glad that Heavies are not played like snipers... If you wish no disadvantage, you still wish Standardisation of bosses, you nearly wish it for mercenaries too! I'm not OK with that!
On some maps, like Wild Canyon, just staying up with a bit skill, you can make nearly each round 3 to 5k damages easily! On Cairo Pyramid, if 2 engies managed to build on the top pyramid, it's the end for the hale in 80% of the cases! So, I say NO, classes are not at disadvantage generaly, it depend of the maps and people gameplay! Survivals abilities are also coming from skills (like dodging) or teamplay (don't think as solo always), they are nearly never at disadvantage, if people play as team and smart (it would be really OP if ALL people played as team... when i just see/do duo or trio teamplay with medics)! And, Scouts... disadvantage? Really... that one of the last at disadvantage classes (at least to survive)!
Bosses have gameplays, i don't think you understand! It come from Hale props and Maps! There are bosses that really need to target some class, like medic, pyro, snipers or anything cause if they don't, they'll lose, or will lose a lot of health because of that! Still on Wild Canyon, if people don't target Snipers first, that's nearly always a loss... If you don't kill/target medic with ignition skill/weapon boss, you'll have a hard time!
Actually, that really better to think of a gameplay at each maps, each bosses, that's a double choice strategy... you need to adapted bosses and maps (having choices i better)! And there is nearly always a way to do something for each classes (same for bosses) on every maps, after come the teaming up and skills!
So, is that really a prob that bosses are not played the same, have weaknesses, strenght... same for mercenaries that seem unbalanced?
NO! Cause you're choosing them, you adapt to them and everything can change with circumstances! And that's what is fun! It's never the same! What's cool with this serv, it's that you never get bored if you try new things, adapt and make strategies... If you want only to play one class, one boss or play only one type gameplay... that's sure boring, unbalanced and frustrating! Cause that will not always work!
It seem Night, that, what you're saying above, is just because you can't win, or be on the top, cause your gameplay doesn't fit! You nearly ask (or just seem that way) to make more Balance, just because you can't adapt situations that jam your gameplay!
By my side, i'm nearly asking more gameplay jamming bosses (at least new ways)! Cause it will be fun to find new way to play! And, if bosses are too perfect, what's the point to fight them?
PS: Triceratops impaling (as stucking) people make sense in fact!
Great feedback. It's not being ignored, but I'm running to the end of chunk of free time that I had, which has mostly been used on the server move, new bit and bobs and helping THG.
Some changes will be made, but my general opinion is closer to Llamara's at this point.
Apologies for not giving a full response, but it would take quite a bit of time and let even more worms out of the can.
Until there is time.
Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:43 pm
Llamara
HH Donor
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:42 pm Posts: 379 Location: France
Re: Server's problems
Some pics from HHH bugs on crevice ^^, it happen all the time, i find it pretty artistic:
For each bosses that can be stuck, there is (nearly) a boss that look like the same and can't be stuck! If you don't like being stuck, just don't choose these bosses (there is so much choices)! Also we nearly can consider that being stuck (with ubber) is just a huge Weakness... and these bosses are just bigger challenge to win with!
That's the problem I have with it. Why on earth would you use Big Daddy over Saxton Hale, they're the same hale (with Big Daddy having a bit more hp which is only noticable on a full server), only you can literally rape Big Daddy with a Heavy-Medic Combo which you can't do with Saxton Hale. For the challenge? To be honest, it's more frustrating to play with him than fun and I'm very certain I'm not the only one. Most regulars try to avoid this hale and even if they did get him though random, they still don't like it.
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I know it's a bit frustrating to have a boss like that and can't win with it... But, can be excepted when you chose random, you accept his weaknesses... Cause you could have chosen another boss without these weaknesses, it's your fault (even more when you didn't choose), wasted queue point too!
Most people choosing random want to have fun with the hale they get, which gets ruined by getting one of the hales that is ridiculously easy to counter.
Quote:
I see the stuff coming "When a new player come on the serv... that he didn't know"... It the same as for other bosses... they don't know how to jump, and often get owned cause they don't know how it work (that's not "Holy shit, a pony!" for AppleJack that will help to understand the jumps)! Newbies are just easy preys, and don't last long, even with OP bosses, and that works for everything!
And this has do with what? That's with every new player, can't use that as an excuse.
Quote:
I see people that use to play a lot on the serv, know to adapt each boss, make strategies, exploit the weakness... I think that's better to have differences, even if it look like sometime as a bug... The purpose is to enjoy the game... if you don't, just kill yourselves (In game only ^^), if that's a boss you didn't choose, do it next time (that's your fault not doing it, or you knew the risks as random, cause some maps nearly mean death to some boss or unskilled players)!
No it's not the player's fault, playing as random should be fun to do so, which it isn't here. There's always the chance to get a shitty hale that can easily screw up. I used to play random only, but I gave up on it, because it gave me stress for hoping not to get a really bad hale. This is also why unbalanced maps should be removed.
Quote:
People nearly always complain that Bug's Bunny is too OP... But that just because the Backstab just OS and they nearly never see it coming! BB need to be played deceitful, if he failed his jump, he need to wait 8 second to jump again (without the loading, that can take 0.5 to 2 seconds more)... At the moment, he's only less visible than PP, but PP has way more shift possibilities and nearly 3 time faster to jump!
People USED to complain about him being OP when he still did 360 damage per hit and was also able to backstab. Btw, there will always be people that will say a certain hale is op.
Quote:
In game, with BB, i had really hard time, hide and seeking, waiting for my cooldown... luring people... But with PP, i was spotted easily, but i manage to goomba half of the team, with easy jump tricks... it was way faster to win!
This reminds me that Darth Vader is able to win by only using rage and goombas, no melee needed.
Quote:
These bosses are actually nerfed (5K for rage, not sure PP), but one is really hardcore, the other one just playtime (i think that PP is way more OP)!
As I've said, they were nerfed due them being able to deal 360 dmg per hit.
Quote:
So you can choose as the same for Big Daddy VS Saxton Hale, just one is more hardcore cause it could be stuck!
But one isn't fun to use for most regulars.
Quote:
So, yeah, i'm defending these silly points, cause, what is the point to have clones of other bosses if the only stuff that change is more or less the skin! At least the is more different gameplay and challenge with these! Chaos can be a good thing, and if you want to balance everything, the game will be just uniform and boring! It changes gameplay for bosses and mercenaries... even glitchy stuff has attractive points!
"What's the point in having clones?" Hmmm, let's see: -Vagineer, Applejack, Pinkie, Lucario,... -Saxton Hale, Cyclops, Robbie, Meatboy, Kinky, Painis,... -Kermit, Pink Panther, Bugs Bunny,...
Those are all clones of eachother which I can think of right now, with some of them having slightly differences, like longer uber, shorter stun radius, etc. But those don't affect gameplay that much.
Quote:
What are you talking about? They are already there... The efficiency of classes, are coming from theses differencies, and also maps! I'm glad that Heavies are not played like snipers... If you wish no disadvantage, you still wish Standardisation of bosses, you nearly wish it for mercenaries too! I'm not OK with that!
Take Munch for example... What kind of "things" are Scout, Heavy or Sniper able to do with this hale? Hitting the hale is really hard with the small hitbox it has and goombas aren't an option. Same goes with Sonic.
Quote:
On some maps, like Wild Canyon, just staying up with a bit skill, you can make nearly each round 3 to 5k damages easily! On Cairo Pyramid, if 2 engies managed to build on the top pyramid, it's the end for the hale in 80% of the cases!
So what's the fun of playing hale on that map then? It happens nearly everytime.
Quote:
So, I say NO, classes are not at disadvantage generaly, it depend of the maps and people gameplay! Survivals abilities are also coming from skills (like dodging) or teamplay (don't think as solo always), they are nearly never at disadvantage, if people play as team and smart (it would be really OP if ALL people played as team... when i just see/do duo or trio teamplay with medics)! And, Scouts... disadvantage? Really... that one of the last at disadvantage classes (at least to survive)!
Again take the example of Munch. And when did I say anything about survival?
Quote:
Bosses have gameplays, i don't think you understand! It come from Hale props and Maps! There are bosses that really need to target some class, like medic, pyro, snipers or anything cause if they don't, they'll lose, or will lose a lot of health because of that! Still on Wild Canyon, if people don't target Snipers first, that's nearly always a loss... If you don't kill/target medic with ignition skill/weapon boss, you'll have a hard time!
I think I do understand. Give me one hale that doesn't receive a bonus from killing Medics. And besides, Wild Canyon is an exploitable map.
Quote:
Actually, that really better to think of a gameplay at each maps, each bosses, that's a double choice strategy... you need to adapted bosses and maps (having choices i better)! And there is nearly always a way to do something for each classes (same for bosses) on every maps, after come the teaming up and skills!
Good luck finding a strategy for Merasmus on Nova_Prospekt and Grid_Walls. And I only mentioned that certain classes have a disadvantage over some HALES, not maps
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So, is that really a prob that bosses are not played the same, have weaknesses, strenght... same for mercenaries that seem unbalanced?
I'm just saying that hales have serious advantages that outweights the disadvantages they have. You can also say it the other way around.
Quote:
NO! Cause you're choosing them, you adapt to them and everything can change with circumstances! And that's what is fun! It's never the same! What's cool with this serv, it's that you never get bored if you try new things, adapt and make strategies... If you want only to play one class, one boss or play only one type gameplay... that's sure boring, unbalanced and frustrating! Cause that will not always work!
Don't tell me to change strategy, I'm someone who does that plenty of times.
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It seem Night, that, what you're saying above, is just because you can't win, or be on the top, cause your gameplay doesn't fit! You nearly ask (or just seem that way) to make more Balance, just because you can't adapt situations that jam your gameplay!
And what's the problem with having a bit more balance? I'm far from the only one who wants that. And as I've said, I change my startegy most of the time. Maybe you should also be someone who needs to do that, not trying to insult you, but you and Verus always tend to go Phlog Pyro-Medic Combo whenever you're both on the server (sometimes the other way around with you being the Medic and Verus being the Heavy), so don't tell me to change gameplay all the time.
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By my side, i'm nearly asking more gameplay jamming bosses (at least new ways)! Cause it will be fun to find new way to play! And, if bosses are too perfect, what's the point to fight them?
What about balancing old hales so they become hales with new gameplay instead of adding new ones and thus increasing the amount in the boss list?
Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:36 pm
Llamara
HH Donor
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:42 pm Posts: 379 Location: France
Re: Server's problems
I'll be quick... (in fact no)
Facts:
-Hales can be advantaged on some maps, on others they're not!
-Hales have serious advantages that outweights the disadvantages they have, but, bosses have also serious disadvantages that outweights the advantages they have!
-Some classes can have serious advantage over some Hales, the opposite is also true in fact... but there is no hale that is not disadvantage against any class!
-Some classes can shine from the moment they are played in synergy, but not all these strategies will not work against every Hales or on every maps!
-On EVERY maps, there is a stuff to exploit for some classes... but it will not work against every hales, the problem is when these exploits are not fair and the Hale has no way to win!
-Noobs are easy prey cause they don't know how to play!
-Random is nearly playing at Russian Roulette, you can loose, you can win... but when you know that a lot of Hales have hard time for some maps, it's really easy to get disappointed!
-People are not always hardcore gamers, easy to handle Hales or Maps are required to satisfy everyone! The opposite is also interrelated or required for challenge!
-FF2 is different from VSH... Some Hales can be unbalanced!
-A balanced Hale should be a hale that has 50% chance of winning!
Ok... So now... What's good on the serv and should not change!
-There is Hales that can manage packs (Seeman, Pyrogas, Merasmus...), that can shoot, that can be played with backstab, that have uber rage, summon... etc Allowing to make different gameplay!
-Some Hales are really OP, but have weakness that can handicap them, like getting stuck, damage vulnerability, knockback vulnerability... Also, it always exist a nearly similar hales that doesn't have these weaknesses, with slightly differences! If people wants challenge, easy stuff or their favorite Hale, they choose it... Random is at their own risk!
-Some hales are easier to handle, some are hardcore... and it can be easier or worst depending of the maps!
-They is always a way to shine against any Hale as mercenary... You just need a bit luck (if you don't reconize the begining music) or knowledge/gumption to choose an efficient class for the map, and the hale before the round begin!
-Medic are the pillar of the team, they're the keys in offense and defence! It's an handicap if the team begin without even one... It's as the same for engineers! But for defence only!
-So now... let's have fun:
Data:
Spoiler Alert:
Doom has been played 547 times, with 207 wins and 340 losses. 26 points for a win. Triceratops has been played 486 times, with 182 wins and 304 losses. 27 points for a win. Wall-E has been played 406 times, with 167 wins and 239 losses. 24 points for a win Shrek has been played 1081 times, with 499 wins and 582 losses. 22 points for a win. Duke Nukem has been played 917 times, with 550 wins and 367 losses. 17 points for a win. Gentlemen has been played 862 times, with 508 wins and 354 losses. 17 points for a win. Saxton Hale has been played 563 times, with 330 wins and 233 losses. 17 points for a win. Charizard has been played 606 times, with 235 wins and 371 losses. 26 points for a win. Bugs Bunny has been played 882 times, with 613 wins and 269 losses. 14 points for a win. Demon Chef has been played 770 times, with 488 wins and 282 losses. 16 points for a win. Nyan Cat has been played 323 times, with 165 wins and 158 losses. 20 points for Applejack has been played 1325 times, with 821 wins and 504 losses. 16 points for a win. Predator has been played 629 times, with 245 wins and 384 losses. 26 points for a win. Kermit has been played 618 times, with 361 wins and 257 losses. 17 points for a win. Pyrogas has been played 757 times, with 503 wins and 254 losses. 15 points for a win. Skeleton King has been played 701 times, with 378 wins and 323 losses. 19 points for a win. Ass Pancakes has been played 1301 times, with 777 wins and 524 losses. 17 points for a win. Seeman has been played 743 times, with 481 wins and 262 losses. 15 points for a win. MeeM has been played 1089 times, with 473 wins and 616 losses. 23 points for Lucario has been played 308 times, with 175 wins and 133 losses. 18 points for a win. Mummy has been played 254 times, with 149 wins and 105 losses. 17 points for a win Big Daddy has been played 652 times, with 295 wins and 357 losses. 22 points for a win. Painis Cupcake has been played 1247 times, with 775 wins and 472 losses. 16 points for a win. Knight of Ni! has been played 749 times, with 450 wins and 299 losses. 17 points for a win. Stewie Griffin has been played 464 times, with 267 wins and 197 losses. 17 points for a win. Merasmus has been played 474 times, with 183 wins and 291 losses. 26 points for a win. GentleSpy has been played 1040 times, with 719 wins and 321 losses. 14 points for a win. Heisenberg has been played 818 times, with 412 wins and 406 losses. 20 points for a win. Freddy Krueger has been played 896 times, with 600 wins and 296 losses. 15 Horseless Headless Horsemann Jr. has been played 535 times, with 304 wins and 231 losses. 18 points for a win. Gabe Newell has been played 1327 times, with 531 wins and 796 losses. 25 points for a win. Captain Kinky has been played 978 times, with 496 wins and 482 losses. 20 points for a win. CrashBandicoot has been played 650 times, with 405 wins and 245 losses. 16 points for a win. Fox McCloud has been played 571 times, with 236 wins and 335 losses. 24 points for a win. Space Marine has been played 460 times, with 203 wins and 257 losses. 23 points for a w Aya Shameimaru has been played 510 times, with 333 wins and 177 losses. 15 points for a win. Demo Samedi has been played 1322 times, with 896 wins and 426 losses. 15 points for a win. Christian Brutal Sniper has been played 1225 times, with 756 wins and 469 losses. 16 points for a win. Aatrox has been played 773 times, with 502 wins and 271 losses. 15 points for a win. Munch Oddysee has been played 385 times, with 166 wins and 219 losses. 23 points for a win. Pinkie has been played 777 times, with 429 wins and 348 losses. 18 points for a win. Luigi has been played 574 times, with 351 wins and 223 losses. 16 points for a win. WeepingAngel has been played 148 times, with 34 wins and 114 losses. 44 points for a win. Ninja Spy has been played 1008 times, with 684 wins and 324 losses. 15 points for a win. Zer0 has been played 1227 times, with 642 wins and 585 losses. 19 points for a win. Robbie The Rabbit has been played 498 times, with 226 wins and 272 losses. 22 points for a win. Pink Panther has been played 391 times, with 223 wins and 168 losses. 18 points for a win. Rappy has been played 674 times, with 309 wins and 365 losses. 22 points for a win. Kirby has been played 431 times, with 233 wins and 198 losses. 18 points for a win. Skelescout has been played 695 times, with 434 wins and 261 losses. 16 points for a win. Sanic has been played 831 times, with 452 wins and 379 losses. 18 points for a win. Ash Williams has been played 633 times, with 258 wins and 375 losses. 25 points for a win. The Administrator has been played 1238 times, with 478 wins and 760 losses. 26 points for a win. Abe! has been played 853 times, with 425 wins and 428 losses. 20 points for a win. Herobrine has been played 1654 times, with 1090 wins and 564 losses. 15 points for a win. Polish Medic: Deathray has been played 827 times, with 466 wins and 361 losses. 18 points for a win. Darth Vader has been played 551 times, with 369 wins and 182 losses. 15 points for a win. Fujiwara no Mokou has been played 898 times, with 516 wins and 382 losses. 17 points for a win. Sonic has been played 477 times, with 249 wins and 228 losses. 19 points for a win. Bill Overbeck has been played 489 times, with 313 wins and 176 losses. 16 points for a win. Cave Johnson has been played 812 times, with 282 wins and 530 losses. 29 points for a win. Cyclops has been played 431 times, with 177 wins and 254 losses. 24 points for a win. creeper has been played 756 times, with 296 wins and 460 losses. 26 points for a win. Dalek Caan has been played 949 times, with 546 wins and 403 losses. 17 points for a win. Mario has been played 538 times, with 331 wins and 207 losses. 16 points for a win. Donkey Kong has been played 499 times, with 254 wins and 245 losses. 20 points for a win. FemSpy has been played 529 times, with 257 wins and 272 losses. 21 points for a win. Gangplank has been played 842 times, with 504 wins and 338 losses. 17 points for a win. Ghostface has been played 538 times, with 225 wins and 313 losses. 24 points for a win. The Hidden has been played 715 times, with 258 wins and 457 losses. 28 points for a win. Jeff The Killer has been played 1130 times, with 567 wins and 563 losses. 20 points for a win. Koishi Komeiji has been played 701 times, with 340 wins and 361 losses. 21 points for a win. Master Yi has been played 508 times, with 310 wins and 198 losses. 16 points for a win. Meta Knight has been played 321 times, with 181 wins and 140 losses. 18 points for a win. Pacman has been played 460 times, with 229 wins and 231 losses. 20 points for a win. Pedobear has been played 595 times, with 267 wins and 328 losses. 22 points for a win. R2D2 has been played 408 times, with 201 wins and 207 losses. 20 points for a win. Sandmen has been played 970 times, with 594 wins and 376 losses. 16 points for a win. Radigan Conagher has been played 793 times, with 497 wins and 296 losses. 16 points for a win. Super Meat Boy has been played 475 times, with 261 wins and 214 losses. 18 points for a win. Grey Alien has been played 320 times, with 198 wins and 122 losses. 16 points for a win. Wheatley has been played 720 times, with 332 wins and 388 losses. 22 points for a win. Weeping Angel Alpha has been played 496 times, with 292 wins and 204 losses. 17 points for a win. Volibear has been played 298 times, with 119 wins and 179 losses. 25 points for a win. Servant Grunt has been played 501 times, with 234 wins and 267 losses. 21 points for a win. Tails has been played 501 times, with 280 wins and 221 losses. 18 points for a win. Vagineer has been played 642 times, with 356 wins and 286 losses. 18 points for a win. Sakuya Izayoi has been played 823 times, with 473 wins and 350 losses. 17 points for a win. Ghost Rider has been played 432 times, with 197 wins and 235 losses. 22 points for a win.
Medium Disadvantage: 11+10 Gabe Newell 40.0% -> Pretty true that he's a bit at disadvantage! Ash Williams 40.7% -> It should be worst! Cyclops 41.1% Wall-E 41.1% Fox McCloud 41.3% Ghostface 41.8% Munch Oddysee 43.1% -> It's really a bad idea to think about nerfing more this one! MeeM 43.4% Space Marine 44.1% Pedobear 44.9%
Balanced, or nearly: 12 Koishi Komeiji 48.5% FemSpy 48.6% R2D2 49.3% Abe! 49.8% Pacman 49.8% Jeff The Killer 50.2% Heisenberg 50.3% Captain Kinky 50.7% Donkey Kong 50.9% Nyan Cat 51.0% Sonic 52.2% Zer0 52.3%
Slightly Easy: 44+4 Skeleton King 53.9% Kirby 54.0% Sanic 54.4% Super Meat Boy 54.9%
Medium advantage: 23+21 Pinkie 55.2% Vagineer 55.5% Tails 55.9% Polish Medic: Deathray 56.3% Meta Knight 56.4% Lucario 56.8% Horseless Headless Horsemann Jr. 56.8% Pink Panther 57.0% Kermit 57.3% Fujiwara no Mokou 57.4% Stewie Griffin 57.5% Dalek Caan 57.5% -> Not so much underpowered in fact! Sakuya Izayoi 57.5% Saxton Hale 58.6% Mummy 58.6% Gentlemen 58.9% Weeping Angel Alpha 58.9% Ass Pancakes 59.7% Gangplank 59.9% Duke Nukem 59.9% Knight of Ni 60.0%
Overpowered: 8+15 Master Yi 61.0% Luigi 61.1% Sandmen 61.2% Mario 61.5% Christian Brutal Sniper 61.7% Grey Alien 61.9% -> Ok... if we nerf Grey Alien, AppleJack need to be too! Applejack 61.9% Painis Cupcake 62.1% CrashBandicoot 62.3% Skelescout 62.4% Radigan Conagher 62.7% Demon Chef 63.3% Bill Overbeck 64.0% -> So, getting stuck make him loose? Even with, it's still OP! Seeman 64.7% Aatrox 64.9%
Really overpowered, nearly unfair: 8 Aya Shameimaru 65.2% Herobrine 65.9% Pyrogas 66.4% Freddy Krueger 66.9% Darth Vader 66.9% Ninja Spy 67.8% -> Imagine it without him getting stuck! GentleSpy 69.1% Bugs Bunny 69.5% -> Maybe i've played way too much this one... It's nerfed now!
Numbers (on 89 Hales): 12 Ballanced Hales 48 on the overpower side 29 on the underpower side
The problem Night is, that you say that you want balance, you want most of the time making overpowered bosses to be even more, like for Bill, Ninja Spy, Aya... or the opposite, like Munch wanting to make it even worst than he's already!
Actually, there is way more overpower hales than underpower... Nerfing the overpowered one should be the priority... Oradding new underpower one to make balance! Also... Why don't kill two birds with one stone adding that with old Hales!
By my side (i don't want to try to quote anything):
I already said my point of view about Hales earlier, so i'll do not add anything more! Then, i consider you, Night, as a really good player Night, even a friend... But when i don't agree something, i say it! The game is alreay too difficult on the mercenary side most of the time, if you remove the parachute... it will be a slaughter most of the time!
Also, i already said that Cairo, Nova or Grid Walls are unbalanced maps... But the problem is they are beloved by a lot of players... cause they can actually win or shine as mercenary most of the time!
Still talking about maps... exploiting it, is not in fact so much a problem... For no exploiting spots maps, it will be just flat and open field ones... so boring, and could be unfair to hale or mercenaries (depending on which hales)!
So, finaly about my gameplay, i think it's more difficult than it look when you're on it, difficult to follow a pyro as medic, also need synchro and timing... I'm 1st Pyro, Wiseman 1st medic, we're trying to keep it that way! After, we don't do that all the time, depending on the mood or the maps/hales! Is this a problem?
Sorry about a so much long post ^^! Many Thanks to NeUn helping me to make these stats!
-Hales can be advantaged on some maps, on others they're not!
So we should keep the maps where it's either rape the hale or being raped by the hale?
Quote:
-Hales have serious advantages that outweights the disadvantages they have, but, bosses have also serious disadvantages that outweights the advantages they have!
Name a serious disadvantage that Herobrine has compared to other hales? As far as I know, it's a straight upgrade from Saxton Hale and Christian Brutal Sniper.
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-Some classes can have serious advantage over some Hales, the opposite is also true in fact... but there is no hale that is not disadvantage against any class!
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-Some classes can shine from the moment they are played in synergy, but not all these strategies will not work against every Hales or on every maps!
Well duh, it's called TEAM Fortress for a reason. And ofcourse it's true about the strategies. Same goes in PvP, not the same tactic work against different teams.
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-On EVERY maps, there is a stuff to exploit for some classes... but it will not work against every hales, the problem is when these exploits are not fair and the Hale has no way to win!
I'm talking about exploits like getting out of the map, those and unbalanced maps should be removed, or tell me one reason why it shouldn't happen.
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-Noobs are easy prey cause they don't know how to play!
Again, what does this have to do with anything we're discussing? Balancing around new players is a terrible thing to do, Valve gave us some examples.
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-Random is nearly playing at Russian Roulette, you can loose, you can win... but when you know that a lot of Hales have hard time for some maps, it's really easy to get disappointed!
Random is an option to choose and it should be fair to choose it, not what it is like now.
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-People are not always hardcore gamers, easy to handle Hales or Maps are required to satisfy everyone! The opposite is also interrelated or required for challenge!
Should we really leave hales that are VERY easy to use and teach players bad habbits? I don't see the point of doing that. Same goes for the maps like I said in the first part of this post, I don't see why doing that is also a good idea. Giving players a chance to win? What's the point of fighting the hale when it's a garantue win for you anyways?
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-FF2 is different from VSH... Some Hales can be unbalanced!
In the first post I said I know the more hale you have the harder it becomes to balance them, but should that be an excuse to leave it like that? I say no.
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-A balanced Hale should be a hale that has 50% chance of winning!
Not always, you can have a hale that can be very balanced because it has a high skill ceiling. It also depends mostly on which hale an experienced person plays with.
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Ok... So now... What's good on the serv and should not change!
-There is Hales that can manage packs (Seeman, Pyrogas, Merasmus...), that can shoot, that can be played with backstab, that have uber rage, summon... etc Allowing to make different gameplay!
Merasmus is a piece of shit, ask Thunder, he can confirm this. Seeman is almost a garantue win on closed maps like arena_wow, nova_prospekt, grid_walls, or maps where people come together in one place. The problem with him is he's sorta like Skeleton King, but only he has a larger range with his explosion AND he doesn't give you the time to get away from it.
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-Some Hales are really OP, but have weakness that can handicap them, like getting stuck, damage vulnerability, knockback vulnerability... Also, it always exist a nearly similar hales that doesn't have these weaknesses, with slightly differences! If people wants challenge, easy stuff or their favorite Hale, they choose it... Random is at their own risk!
Herobrine is op, but I don't see a weakness for him, same goes with Grey Alien. What's that? He has teleport? Well that still doesn't balance him out. And as I've said before, random should be a fair option, not based on luck and map.
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-Some hales are easier to handle, some are hardcore... and it can be easier or worst depending of the maps!
But the ones that are either too easy or too hard to handle should be given a buff/nerf according to that.
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-They're always a way to shine against any Hale as mercenary... You just need a bit luck (if you don't reconize the begining music) or knowledge/gumption to choose an efficient class for the map, and the hale before the round begin!
There are hales which don't have an entry sound, like Bugs Bunny, Pink Panther, Kirby,...
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-Medic are the pillar of the team, they're the keys in offense and defence! It's an handicap if the team begin without even one... It's as the same for engineers! But for defence only!
Well you said that hales need different types of gameplays and then you mentioned that some of them should kill the medics first. After that I simply asked which hale doesn't benefit from doing that.
Quote:
-So now... let's have fun:
Stuff
Numbers don't mean anything for hales that have higher win/lose ratio most of the time. Cave Johnsons is just underpowered, no denying that. Same goes for Wheeping Angel (not alpha) and Merasmus. I'm asking myself if you know the meaning of balancing regarding Munch. Dalek isn't underpowered, far from that, he just has trouble with HHH.
Regarding Applejack, she's pretty much the same as Vagineer, the reason why she stands higher than him is because me, Thunder (used to) and Spekkie play her most of the time. I barely even use rage with her. Is she op then? Hell no, only experienced people play her most of the time. I already said why Grey Alien is op and should be nerfed.
Ninja Spy and Bill win most of the time because A)They have 2 matrix attacks and B)Their time in matrix mode is very long Remove the getting stuck and nerf their matrix time, same gameplay, only less op.
Quote:
The problem Night is, that you say that you want balance, you want most of the time making overpowered bosses to be even more, like for Bill, Ninja Spy, Aya... or the opposite, like Munch wanting to make it even worst than he's already!
Balancing means getting the hale on the right path when it comes to: -Fun while playing them -Fun while playing against them -Not too easy to win -Not too hard to win E.G. make its hitbox bigger, but give him more health instead.
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Actually, there is way more overpower hales than underpower... Nerfing the overpowered one should be the priority... Oradding new underpower one to make balance! Also... Why don't kill two birds with one stone adding that with old Hales!
I can agree with the first one, but with the second one I have to disagree. QUALITY > QUANTITY I don't see what it would solve when adding new underpowered hales, it just makes choosing random less fun.
Quote:
Also, i already said that Cairo, Nova or Grid Walls are unbalanced maps... But the problem is they are beloved by a lot of players... cause they can actually win or shine as mercenary most of the time!
Again, where's the challenge when you already know you're going to win?
Quote:
Still talking about maps... exploiting it, is not in fact so much a problem... For no exploiting spots maps, it will be just flat and open field ones... so boring, and could be unfair to hale or mercenaries (depending on which hales)!
Tell me... should a player be able to get on a place where only a teleport halce can get? There are plenty of maps that don't apply to that logic what you're saying. Silo_park, castle_siege, towertop, mineriver, watermill,...
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So, finaly about my gameplay, i think it's more difficult than it look when you're on it, difficult to follow a pyro as medic, also need synchro and timing... I'm 1st Pyro, Wiseman 1st medic, we're trying to keep it that way! After, we don't do that all the time, depending on the mood or the maps/hales! Is this a problem?
I just find it a bit hypocritical that you're telling me to change strategy while you're playing the same thing over and over again most of the time when you and Verus are on the server. And it's also a bit selfish when it comes to the damage dealt and healing done for the top 10 rankings.
Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:55 pm
Llamara
HH Donor
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:42 pm Posts: 379 Location: France
Re: Server's problems
So, Know i find you really annoying... You're trolling me! It's easy to quote everything without context to alter it's meaning! I'm not playing this game Night!
When i say:
Quote:
-Hales can be advantaged on some maps, on others they're not!
It's a fact... and that fit for any maps! Example: Spy Hales are advantage on maps with blind-spots! Uber Boss are advantage on maps that pack people! Summoning bosses are advantage on maps with hidding place to wait cooldown! Fast Jumping bosses are advantage on open-field maps!
And when you say:
Quote:
So we should keep the maps where it's either rape the hale or being raped by the hale?
No maps could remain, cause there is ALWAYS at some points, an advantage somewhere for hales or mercenaries! Name me a map that doesn't advantage any class of mercenary? Same, name me a map that doesn't advantage any hale!
That's Why i said:
Quote:
-On EVERY maps, there is a stuff to exploit for some classes... but it will not work against every hales, the problem is when these exploits are not fair and the Hale has no way to win!
I NEVER said exploit meaning "going out of the map" or stuff like that! Have you ever seen me on impossible spots to troll a boss... I confess that i go sometime underwater on some maps, but that's not impossible spots! You've never seen me do stuff like that... I had for you, like on "Hyrule Castle"!
Also, by exploiting, i'm mean playing smart... and not "using glitch"!
When you say that:
Quote:
Tell me... should a player be able to get on a place where only a teleport halce can get? There are plenty of maps that don't apply to that logic what you're saying. Silo_park, castle_siege, towertop, mineriver, watermill,...
That make me laught... Cause there is a lot of Exploiting spots on these maps... Not exploiting glitchy stuff, but just annoying ones... Like being with sentries in lava for mineriver that make you spawn if you're in, as hale, Towers or high spot that none of non jumping hale can go against sentry (even jumping ones having hard time)... Snipers spots that make you being shot a lot of time before getting to the snipers if you don't get knockback... Bridge, coridors, container, roofs, houses... these maps are not empty... there is always interesting spots to exploit!
Exploiting spots like that is playing... smart actually... Basically use to your own advantage (that's the definition of exploiting) the props, the layout of maps! I didn't even talk about impossible places for that! Don't make tell stuff i didn't!
Quote:
Also, i already said that Cairo, Nova or Grid Walls are unbalanced maps... But the problem is they are beloved by a lot of players... cause they can actually win or shine as mercenary most of the time!
Quote:
Quote:
-On EVERY maps, there is a stuff to exploit for some classes... but it will not work against every hales, the problem is when these exploits are not fair and the Hale has no way to win!
I'm talking about exploits like getting out of the map, those and unbalanced maps should be removed, or tell me one reason why it shouldn't happen.
When i said these, i was just making assessments! These maps should be removed, yeah... never said the opposite! I just said the problem with that, and why these were popular! I DON'T LIKE PLAYING ON THESE MAPS (at least much more Grid Walls and Nova), it's boring to play these maps, even if it's easy damage... it's a slaughter most of the time! Why did you even think i'm defending them? I'm not! Maybe that's a bit my fault... cause english is not my birth language, and by exploiting, people always think about glitchy stuff... but i never said it like that!
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Name a serious disadvantage that Herobrine has compared to other hales? As far as I know, it's a straight upgrade from Saxton Hale and Christian Brutal Sniper.
KnockBack (By everything) + Weak on Large Open Field Maps (snipers) + Low Range Stun Happy?
Quote:
I just find it a bit hypocritical that you're telling me to change strategy while you're playing the same thing over and over again most of the time when you and Verus are on the server. And it's also a bit selfish when it comes to the damage dealt and healing done for the top 10 rankings.
My strategy can be adapt to most maps and hales! Sniper are selfish too? There's doing all the time the same thing! Most of the time, !top10 ones are exclusive for some classes, are they selfish too? Even you nearly always play the same classes... Nearly never seen you as Medic/Engi helping the team... Should i say that you're selfish too? Don't attack me on that!
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Well you said that hales need different types of gameplays and then you mentioned that some of them should kill the medics first. After that I simply asked which hale doesn't benefit from doing that.
Ash William (when it wasn't glitch), Herobrine, Seeman, every jumping hales... cause it's packing people in a same place most of the time (people are sheeps), making it easy to deal with them in one rage or goomba (sometime it can even show you the way to his teamates ><)! The mummy (or even the Weeping Angel) can, as Ash, kill them even ubered! Creeper, Crash Bandicoot, Seeman can even kill the one being ubber by raging/knocking out the useless medic ubbering! So they're not even a threat!
Hales:
Quote:
Regarding Applejack, she's pretty much the same as Vagineer, the reason why she stands higher than him is because me, Thunder (used to) and Spekkie play her most of the time. I barely even use rage with her. Is she op then? Hell no, only experienced people play her most of the time. I already said why Grey Alien is op and should be nerfed.
So, you're saying that you nearly only play this one? And he's not so OP in fact! You're skilled, i know that! Maybe you should play more the other Hales! Cause you're judging the other ones only comparing them from Applejack!
By my side, i can't play like you in third person... That's a bit cheating i think, like seeing your back or intersection you're not even in! I prefer Spy Hales, i love to play tricky on blindspots map, but they are not as multipurpose, as the ubber, easy, fast jump AppleJack! I also like to play Triceratops... on open field maps (i don't like for Spy Hales), maybe not against 30 people, but less than 20, cause i can enjoy it!
I think you shouldn't judge hale that you never take against 30 people... That as knockback and no ubber rage! You're playing random when there is a few people... so do i! The gameplay isn't the same!
Bug's Bunny is the most OP hale for know... Why... Same as AppleJack but for me playing a lot with it when it wasn't nerfed (even after)! Now, nobody use it and that maybe know 40% winning only (even i, is not sure at all to win)! But still, i'm making it sometime for fun and challenge!
Quote:
I can agree with the first one, but with the second one I have to disagree. QUALITY > QUANTITY I don't see what it would solve when adding new underpowered hales, it just makes choosing random less fun.
THAT'S NOT UNTRUE! But, the huge problem with Quality is that it make/try perfection... Perfect mean Overpowered! Maps and Hales props will always make some disbalance somewhere/how! Why should we try to have balance for hale, when the maps will somewhere make it unbalance ? Why should we try to have balance for maps, when the hales will somehow make it unbalance ? VARIETY + QUANTITY = BALANCE
Really... what am i doing? Oh, et puis MERDE!!! Fuck off! Even with actuals stats you're still saying that's not relevant, for the time i've spent to it... that's mean! There is stuff to do HERE: viewforum.php?f=74
If you actually care, just make the hales specifics feedbacks instead of trying to demonstrate by A+B, point by point that i'm wrong about this or this... You can also post new posts for each map too... Cause it will be endless... and it's tiring for both of us! After all of this i have no faith anymore!
I played against triceratops yesterday: I was playing pyro and dontrustknifefatality was pocketing me. I just exploited him to death and dealt 10000 dmgs.
Heavy sauce's low hp(compared to the other heavy bosses health)make him very weak and easy to kill because he has heavy hitbox.(the minigun can't balance this weakness becoz the switch time between the minigun and the fists is very high)
You can't see behind you with !tp
You can stuck skelescout also with a ubered medic heavy combo(tested)
Llamara you're the only one who are thinking it in a different way and having hales balanced is a better way than keeping bosses impossible for new players, keeping bosses able to stuck with ubers and bb's. Sorry Llamara but I agree with Night more on this.
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