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Weapon updates
http://www.thehh.eu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11296		 Page 3 of 10
Author:  AbunaiShi [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
Blinx wrote:
I was wondering if the shiv's self hit might have made sniper's able to jump a little higher but I didn't realize it'd be this big a problem, will probably just revert the change and make the bleed last a lot longer (Shiv was always weird in ff2 since bleed can't crit and thusly made the shiv almost objectively worse in every regard).


Just curious, why does the Danger Shield makes Snipers light? Would the snipers jump higher ( without the shiv ) ? In my opinion higher jumps for it would be bad in my opinion, including manntreads.
Author:  Blinx [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
AbunaiShi wrote:
Blinx wrote:
I was wondering if the shiv's self hit might have made sniper's able to jump a little higher but I didn't realize it'd be this big a problem, will probably just revert the change and make the bleed last a lot longer (Shiv was always weird in ff2 since bleed can't crit and thusly made the shiv almost objectively worse in every regard).


Just curious, why does the Danger Shield makes Snipers light? Would the snipers jump higher ( without the shiv ) ? In my opinion higher jumps for it would be bad in my opinion, including manntreads.


So the danger shield is a passive item that generally makes the sniper more survivable, and let them focus on their melee and primary, but I didn't like the idea of just flat out "+25 max hp", for one, that makes a sniper 2 hits from a scout boss, in my mind, a sniper without overheal should die in one hit, so the hp buff is only 15, but then I didn't think that that was enough for it to be viable, so I added the +5% movement speed buff and +10% jump height to make snipers just that little bit more slippery, they're both pretty inconsequential in their own right, but combined with the shiv this obviously became a problem.
Author:  Shum! [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
The shive per se it's pretty ok, it's basically a doublejump that costs the sniper more than half his health. Don't really know how powerful it becomes with the DDS.

It would be possible to put a "block healing while in use" stat on the shiv?
People will have to be much more cautious and exploiting would be much harder

Or more self inflicted dmg on the DDS, so that it can't be used with the shiv :?
Author:  Thunder Runner [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
| SkyKnight | wrote:
The reason why the Shiv jump is so powerful as of now, is because of the increased jump height of the Danger Shield. It makes the Sniper lighter in weight and thus gets increased knockback of the Shiv. I never anticipated Blinx giving that bonus to the Danger Shield. If the extra jump height gets removed, you'll surely noticea difference in the maximum amount of height the Sniper can achieve with Shiv jumping. Besides, a Medic pocketing a Sniper is just a waste.


Medics has nothing to do with Tribalman's Shiv if it's about preventing the health loss for jumping. We already have good snipers like Mizuki can just ask Verus to help him out for jumping, and still deal lots of damage while it's not being such a waste.

As the Darwin's Danger Shield goes, without it, Snipers can still dodge with the reasons as I said on previous post. As seen in Disc-FF, there can situations on sniper maps where you struggle hard with killing them them as they are always dodging with their melee (though all sniper melees can do that without bleed).

So if we can still keep the jumps, we can add some nerf stats. Im thinking:

-50% health from healers on wearer
This weapon deploy 20% slower
Author:  Shum! [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
Quote:
-50% health from healers on wearer

50% is probably not going to cut it.
Either complete block when active -which is a pain for medics- or something huge like -90%
And that still wouldn't stop the combo with the DDS
Author:  Blinx [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
I kind of hijacked the boss stats thread accidentally, a message to myself (and others), keep weapon suggestions within this thread. With that said, I've got some changes.

Zatoichi: heal lowered to 70, overheal capped at +50
Fists of steel: Now block healing and reduce knockback taken by 100% while in use.
Big earner: speed boost reduced to 10 seconds
Tribalman's Shiv: While out: 15% reduced jump height
Warrior's spirit: can overheal to +50
Claidheamor: charge duration reduced to 1.5 seconds, recharge penalty increased by 10% (overall charge recharges 40% slower now)
Stickybomb launcher: Stats are now: 15% faster fire and reload rate, 35% faster sticky charge rate (This is the time it takes to "charge" a sticky so it flies further)
Quickiebomb launcher: Now has +15% faster fire and reload rate and 10% increased blast radius
Huo-long Heater: +50% projectile speed, +30% damage
Southern Hospitality: +400% dispenser range, 20% slower sentry firing speed
All stock shotguns: +20% faster reload speed
Author:  AbunaiShi [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
Blinx, just a suggestion. Can you stop asking Dayal about nerfing / buffing weapons? They don't know how it feels like to be as hale, only playing Gangplank and this just rare. It frustrates us, yes there are more people who are sharing my opinion that dayal shouldn't be asked about nerfing / buffing weapons. Dayal / Night only wants changes to be better themself in FF. If something annoys Dayal, he wants a change so he stands out more.

People like Mizuki, Jamieboi, Thunder and Nitros know better what it's too strong. They already struggled so much against weapons and some other things. Random people who only play vs hale and never as hale, shouldn't be asked. They never will understand how frustrating it will become as hale if too much changed for the weapons.
Author:  TheXeridious [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
Quote:
Blinx, just a suggestion. Can you stop asking Dayal about nerfing / buffing weapons? They don't know how it feels like to be as hale, only playing Gangplank and this just rare. It frustrates us, yes there are more people who are sharing my opinion that dayal shouldn't be asked about nerfing / buffing weapons.

Gotta agree with Abu, here. It's making a lot of bosses lose. I'm all for changes, but running them by someone like Thunder, or Jamie, who play boss whenever they can is worth doing.
Author:  Blinx [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
I'm listening to everyone, but I know that Night is also very interested in this and that I can get a lot of ideas from him, and I can bound ideas off of him.

Rather than concerning yourself with my methods of ideation, I'd suggest, you know, making your voice heard about what you think needs changing, if Mizuki, Thunder, Jamieboi and Nitros are so knowledgeable and are concerned with the state of things, then they should talk about it.

Also: Frustration isn't a very solid metric to judge how well a weapon is balanced, stepping back and looking at things objectively and then explaining that to me is much more constructive.
Author:  | SkyKnight | [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon updates
AbunaiShi wrote:
Blinx, just a suggestion. Can you stop asking Dayal about nerfing / buffing weapons?


He doesn't approach me, I approach him most of the time

AbunaiShi wrote:
They don't know how it feels like to be as hale, only playing Gangplank and this just rare.


I do know how it feels to be hale. And nowadays, I only play as random.

AbunaiShi wrote:
It frustrates us, yes there are more people who are sharing my opinion that dayal shouldn't be asked about nerfing / buffing weapons.


And why shouldn't I be asked regarding weapon balance? May I remind you that a good part of these weapon changes came from the Nightwatch server, and barely anyone complained about these changes there.

AbunaiShi wrote:
Dayal / Night only wants changes to be better themself in FF.


I want more variety, and I don't see that as a valid reason to push me out of these weapon balancing. Was the Air Strike useful before? No, it was a straight downgrade. What is it now? An option that doesn't handicap you. What were the only viable methods of playing Demo? Booties, Stickies/Shield and Eyelander. Now you have more options. I want changes because I'm tired of the doing the same playstyle over and over again.

AbunaiShi wrote:
If something annoys Dayal, he wants a change so he stands out more.


Then what are you doing now then? Mizu kept complaining about me going Sticky Demo before these nerfs and I have to accept that. But when I complain about something annoying, everyone loses their minds. If you want to see unfair weapons gone, then I want unfair mechanics on hales gone.

AbunaiShi wrote:
People like Mizuki, Jamieboi, Thunder and Nitros know better what it's too strong. They already struggled so much against weapons and some other things. Random people who only play vs hale and never as hale, shouldn't be asked. They never will understand how frustrating it will become as hale if too much changed for the weapons.



Like if hales didn't already struggle before these changes. Ever thought of it that the hales may be the problem of this instead of the weapon changes themselves?
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